Reflection is the Key - The Labster Podcast, Episode 10
April [00:00:04] Hey, everyone, I'm April. And you're listening to The Labster Podcast. I'm proud to say that at Labster we are guided by our mission to empower the next generation of scientists to change the world and contribute to solving global challenges. If you are an educator listening to this podcast, we know you also share that mission. So thank you.
April [00:00:29] With me, as always, is my friend and fellow Labsterite SJ Boulton, an educational designer and former university lecturer who now develops Labster's virtual labs simulations for students in high school, college and university.
April [00:00:44] In this episode, I have the pleasure to introduce you to two guests. Those of you who watched our recent webinar on enhancing STEM Education in a Post-COVID World will recognize Labster's own Peter Gemmellaro. Before joining Labster, Peter spent time working in various student affairs and admissions roles in higher education, as well as several semesters as an adjunct faculty member at Suffolk University. He joined Labster as a senior customer success manager in the fall of 2020 and has been working closely with today's special guest. Welcome to the podcast, Peter.
Peter [00:01:21] Thank you.
April [00:01:21] Our special guest today is Amber Kool, who is the director of curriculum and instruction at the Arizona College of Nursing, an institution with 10 campuses across the United States. This college's mission is to provide educational opportunities to all learners, including those who might not typically become health care professionals. Amber previously taught as a faculty member and now focuses on developing innovative approaches to curriculum and instruction that will carry students into lifelong careers in nursing. She's also pursuing her Doctor of Nursing Practice in Educational Leadership. Welcome to the podcast, Amber.
Amber [00:02:01] Thanks for having me.
Peter [00:02:02] Thank you for that introduction. April, I really appreciate it. And I'm really excited to be here today to speak with Amber and talk a little bit more about some of the work that you've been doing. I think one of the things that I want to start off with really brings it back to the webinar that we had a few weeks ago, and that's really that transition back to in-person learning. And what are some of those skills that students and faculty? In the past year, there's been a really aggressive pivot to utilization of online learning resources. And I really wonder, what does that look like for an in-person experience in the fall? What does that look like for hybrid experiences? Will we go back to how things were before? Is there a seat at the table for or virtual labs? There were a lot of questions in that, Amber, so feel free to pick and choose accordingly. I'm just really interested to see kind of what your thoughts are on that. Where are we as we kind of plan for that upcoming academic year?
Amber [00:03:00] You know, to be honest, I cannot see us going back to what it was. Following the webinar a couple weeks ago, I started meeting with faculty across campuses and talking about exactly this. How do you take what you've been doing in a virtual world and whether that was synchronous Zoom meetings or providing virtual simulations and opportunities for students to engage in their own learning? And how do you translate that back into either the classroom or a blended classroom? And one of the key pieces that I think we talked about was that prior to this virtual world that we've lived in, in the last year, they were forced to not lecture anymore. And I know that we active learning strategies are something that is not new. We have talked about that every curriculum, designer, instructional designer, faculty, educational leader will tell you that that is not going that you cannot successfully teach students just by lecturing to them. And asynchronous Zoom classroom forced that because I don't know about you, but for myself, I can't imagine anything worse than sitting on a Zoom meeting for three hours while someone talked at me. So in this case, they really were forced to switch it. And I think that's going to be what we see back in the classroom. I think you're going to see the prep work, the before class work being much more engaging.
Amber [00:04:29] So some of the suggestions that we've talked about with our faculty are using things like the virtual simulations and using them as prep work. Have the students go through, have the students participate in that, make notes, write down how they felt, what they thought, what they didn't understand. And then when they come into class, instead of lecturing about whatever the content is, debriefing over how the simulation went, switching it around. And I think the other one of the other strategies that really came up. As I like to call it, kind of a round robin approach where you start the process, so you've given them the tools. So in nursing, we obviously talk a lot about system disorders and what does the nurse need to do? So instead of the faculty lecturing on a system disorder or the nursing process or how to interact, you've given them the prep work, whether it be a virtual simulation or a case study or something, and then they come into class. And now I get to make them be the nurse and I ask them to do something like, all right, Peter, here's your patient scenario. I want you to write up the assessment. I want you to hand your assessment to SJ. SJ, I want you to identify the priority problems and make a plan.
SJ [00:05:46] This sounds an awful lot like a kind of learning experience that would mimic an in-person or a role played environment that I see in medical education. And we use a principle called Mantle of the Expert where we kind of take the student and put them into the role of a professional body. So that kind of play at being the doctor and taking decisions and modeling the behaviors of those perceived experts. Do you see value in that? Is that the kind of experience that you're building?
Amber [00:06:17] Absolutely. Well, in nursing specifically, and I will always have to go back to that. I think it translates into all forms of higher education. We are a society that needs people to be critical thinkers. We need people to use clinical judgment. And we can't activate that thought process if we aren't asking them to apply learning.
Amber [00:06:43] And so I think putting them in a safe place and that's one of my favorite components of virtual simulation, and actually my DNP, my scholarly project, was all on virtual simulation, is that they have the ability to be safe and make a decision and they are forced to be the decision makers versus the historical approach of 'I'm going to give you all the information and tell you how you should think.' That doesn't I don't think that that engages in in a clinical judgment model. And I think if we're talking about scientists, if we're talking about mathematicians, if we're talking about nursing and medical providers and where we need everybody to move to, we need to engage in more than just are you a critical thinker? But how do you apply your critical thinking skills in everyday life?
SJ [00:07:36] You mentioned that you might use a virtual or a simulated experience as kind of a starting point for a piece of work. And to me, that sounded a bit like the flipped classroom model of do something first, talk about it later. I'm wondering if you could expand a little bit on how you might see the simulated experience of the better experience supporting that learning cycle of reflection and experimentation almost.
Amber [00:08:00] I think a major disconnection or kind of a missed opportunity in these experiential learning type experiences is that the student doesn't necessarily learn in the simulation, whether it be virtual or traditional.
Amber [00:08:19] That's not when they're engaging in their learning because they don't know what they don't know. So we ask them to read, whether it's prepping for a virtual simulation or virtual experience, we ask them to prep, we ask them to read the objectives, and then we put them in there. And once they're in the experience, all of a sudden they're challenged with 'I wasn't prepared for that', 'I didn't know,' 'I don't know what to do'. And it creates a little bit of, I would say, undue stress, because learners just, I think by nature put undue stress on themselves.
SJ [00:08:53] We're very good at developing our own cognitive load. Absolutely.
Amber [00:08:57] Exactly. They just just kind of aren't sure. What does this mean? Do it's that building of confidence. So the debrief or the reflection piece, that's the key. That's the key to when a student learns. They are then brought into a place where we can go through and walk through what went well, where did you feel uncomfortable? What could you have done that would have helped you? What areas do you identify that are your weaknesses? What areas did you decide are your strengths? Because that would be the other piece. I think people we do what we're good at, right? We work on what we're good at. We don't tend to want to work, but something that we struggle with. And by putting the reflection in the debrief back on the student, it goes back to putting the accountability back on them. It makes them responsible for their own learning experience. And I think it really does feel kind of complete the circle. So if we look at experiential learning theory, right, it says you're going to - you've learned something, no matter what it is, you're going to use previous experience to make future decisions. Well, if I never do debriefed, if I never reflected on my activity or that learning experience, how can I pull actual knowledge in future experiences to make a new decision?
SJ [00:10:22] So after the student has done the reflection and has identified their knowledge gaps and has formed almost whether it's formally or otherwise, they've kind of got a little plan of like, 'I'm going to better this time and I'm going to do this to make it better' to get them to repeat the simulated experiences? Or is it that they move on to the next one that is slightly different or takes a different angle? How does that work?
Amber [00:10:46] So I definitely would, from my perspective, take it one of two different ways. It would depend on how the student felt. I think, in these opportunities where we're engaging in learning, and that doesn't mean it's one and done. So it may be something where, man, if a student really just did not connect the dots, they weren't getting it. We need to remediate and I want to help them get better. And again, I don't want this to be a high stakes, stressful situation. So I really consider simulation and virtual simulations and that experiential learning opportunity as a phase of the learning process. I find value in the testing of a simulation at the high at a higher stakes level. But it depends on where we're at in the program and it depends on where we're at with that student. So if it was a student that I felt like was missing the connection, I may have them go through it again and this time using what we've just talked about. And hopefully that's going to help reinforce their decision making.
SJ [00:11:51] It sounds like a great consolidation activity to get them to go back through that process and kind of facilitate the light bulb moment a little bit more.
SJ [00:11:58] It's a much deeper experience to actually be in the presence of another person and have to make that same decision and judgment in the presence of another person under that gaze.
SJ [00:12:07] So I see the value of the simulated experience, almost like you say, that safe place. It's an opportunity to to do something and mess it up and not have to worry too much about it. But know that what a great preparatory experience. I love that.
Peter [00:12:23] Now Amber, you and I had talked a little bit about the different courses and you even mentioned this earlier when you were chatting with SJ about the different courses that are utilizing Labster. And I think the mindset is that we think about virtual lab simulations, we think of them as an enhancement to a pre-existing course. We're talking about hybrid models. And then we also think about the last year of what we've experienced with using virtual labs simulations as replacements. Some of the things that you and I have seen and some things that I've seen with other university partners - Labster kind of being used in more unique ways. Do you have any thoughts and feelings on Labster's kind of use within concept courses versus wet lab courses? Is there a benefit to using a virtual labs in a concept course and not just in the lab course?
Amber [00:13:16] Absolutely. We currently use Labster in two courses that are not lab, they do not have a lab component to them. The one that I really think has worked fabulously is our nutrition course. I always think nutrition is hard. It's hard for nursing students, Gen Ed students, it's hard for non medical people in the world. And understanding, that was one of the biggest benefits to us when we were working on these curriculums is: how do you expose a student?
Amber [00:13:53] How do you make them apply something that seems so abstract to them? And the virtual simulation and Labster specifically gave us that tool. I think that it is a very valuable resource, like I said, to bring it in. We can use it as prep work. We can use it as a pre experience. We can run them through the lab together, put them in small groups.
Amber [00:14:16] It's such an active place, even with the virtual simulation in class. I love the idea of whether, well, and I guess in the last year we've had to all do it virtually and via Zoom, using breakout rooms. But in a classroom, you can do the same thing: put students together in small groups of three to four and have them complete the simulation together and they have to make decisions together. So not only are we now asking them to apply their experiential learning, we're asking them to collaborate, work as a team, defend their choices, which also encourages critical thinking. Because if I'm in a group of four people and I want to make this decision and someone else wants to make decision X, we have to come to a mutual agreed upon decision. And you need to defend your reasoning and rationale and get someone to come to your side.
SJ [00:15:12] We need more simulations that have the need to make big decisions at the end of them, that's what I'm hearing. Having the students come together and complete the simulation as part of a group so that working through it together on say, for example, a single computer, but multiple students there and present and making decisions about what task to do or how to interpret a set of data or how to proceed with the tasks. Is that how it works?
Amber [00:15:40] So our Gen Ed students have one goal and it's to become a nurse. So if we talk about what nursing profession looks like, there has never been a moment when I was a bedside nurse that I independently made decisions.
SJ [00:15:56] It's always working with your colleagues.
Amber [00:15:58] Always. You might assess and I might determine what I think is the priority. I always found myself saying, hey, this is where I'm leaning. What is your perspective? You know, would you make the same decision? You know, as you grow as a nurse, you become much more independent in your thoughts and it just becomes second nature. But when you're a new graduate and you're coming into the profession, you are not confident in your decisions yet. And I think that this approach to learning, while we do know that not all group work goes well, that it kind of encourages that team building and teamwork.
Amber [00:16:38] So the focus of the last year, I think, highlighted the need for the development of soft skills. We can teach everyone how to start an IV, but can I talk someone through or teach someone how to communicate with the toddler that you need to start the IV on?
Peter [00:16:59] Do you think that there's anything that virtual labs can do better or differently to really support the development specifically of communication skills or any other of those soft skills that you think are really paramount in nursing?
Amber [00:17:11] I would like to see simulations where those are the objectives. And I think that to that note, I think also in the development of virtual simulations that work on those soft skills, we need it to be realistic. Of course, there is a there's a best practice approach, right? In nursing, we talk about therapeutic communication and what should you say and what should you not say? But we also have to take into consideration that people's actual language and verbiage that they would be comfortable using. A virtual simulation only goes so far. We have to be able to engage the students and make sure that they see the value in what they're doing.
Peter [00:17:52] You've actually brought us to a really great place as we near the end of the podcast. And this has been a fantastic conversation and I've personally learned a lot. One thing that I did want to ask before we wrap up for today is: what do you think needs to be measured to demonstrate the true impact of virtual learning opportunities? I know assessment is huge, especially in higher education. We want to make sure the student experience is top notch. What are some of those things that you really think should be implemented to demonstrate the impact of virtual learning?
Amber [00:18:25] Yeah, I think that when we're talking, if I'm looking at evaluating the student, of course, that's a variance based on what the simulation is, what the course is, and what what is my expectation? What am I trying to get out of this? So when I think of that, I think that one of the evaluation pieces that we have to take into consideration is, was there growth in the student?
Amber [00:18:53] And I think we can see that in the questions and in the responses that they use and how they reflect on the virtual simulation itself. Again, I tend to think that we use virtual labs in a piece of an experience and then evaluate them using other formal tools to show that they gained the knowledge that we expected them to get. From the faculty perspective, I think at this point the one piece of evaluation that I really want to bring it back to is making sure that the faculty are prepared. And it's not just a matter of the faculty going through the simulation, but it's actually asking them what would have helped you implement this better in your class? What would have improved your experience with the virtual labs? And how can we and that's not just a Labster component. That's a, if we're the leadership helping implement this, how can we improve your experience? Because that's, I think, as important as the students' experience.
Peter [00:20:03] Yeah, I think this was a great conversation, I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was nice to kind of hear a different perspective.
SJ [00:20:09] Absolutely. Thank you very, very much for sharing your insights, Amber.
April [00:20:14] Well, I just want to say once again, thank you to Amber and also to Peter. And as we wrap up, I also want to just say thank you to our listeners. Amber, Peter, SJ, and I hope our conversation helped spark some new ideas for you about teaching with virtual lab simulations, whether or not your students are in nursing, health care, and whether or not your courses are in person, online or hybrid. Of course, we know you'll have some questions of your own, so we invite you to talk back with us at Labster dot com talk hyphen with hyphen us.
April [00:20:51] And that's all for us today. Talk to you soon. Thanks for listening, if you like this episode, we hope you'll share it with a fellow teacher and subscribe to The Labster Podcast. Until next time. keep teaching, keep learning and stay safe.
